Youre right, we should study the fossils of people who have been dead for over 10,000+ years, of whom we still dont completely understand, and then make educated guesses as to exactly what they ate. And then people to eat the same way, telling them that it will cure them of all western disease, all with absolutely no proof that its legitimate. Not that it would do us any good considering they were all dead before they could even have grandchildren. Or…
We could do human studies on modern men and women over the course of a large portion of their life. That seems to scientific to me. In fact, its already been done. Dr.Esselstyn reversed heart disease with a plant based diet. The #1 killer in this country and he proved that you could eliminate it through a whole foods, plant based diet that yes, included grains. Find me real evidence, not theory, not guesses based on bones, but a real human study with real proof that this can be done on the paleo diet, and then maybe ill buy into this whole fad. Because thats what Paleo diet is, im not trying to start any fights here, but paleo is based on nothing buy guess work and the logic of a few individuals. Love <3 Casey.

He told me that cows and pigs are more similar to humans than fish and chickens. If we eat cows and pigs or any animal that are more similar to humans, the particles of their meat get absorbed into our bloodstream where our immune system will attack it because it’s a foreign particle. However, since they bore resemblance to certain particles in our bodies, our immune system will also attack those particles in our bodies that look like the particles of the cows and pigs. With fish and chickens, it does not happen like that because their particles are more different than humans.

It seemed very legitimate.

Well, I just got back from my first appointment with a Rheumatologist, who is testing me for Lupus, since I have positive ANA and other markers for Lupus including hair loss and fatigue. The Rheumatologist told me to consider a VEGETARIAN DIET! I was shocked. He said that animal protein causes inflammation. Obviously, this is completely opposite from what I read in The Paleo Diet, but now I am confused. He also gave me examples of people who have been relieved of their lupus symptoms by giving up meat, especially beef. Can this be possible? Obviously, most people on this blog do not agree with this, and I am hoping to get some more info, and maybe references so I can discount what this doc told me.

Is it that some people do well on a vegetarian diet, because of their specific genetic make up? Does everyone do well on a paleo diet? Thanks, Laura

so ya low carb high fat can work. so can high carb low fat. health is more complicated than that

Not sure if you check commenting on your old posts but…..when I click the “item” it goes to a 404…..how can I get this??
Thanks a million,
CAP

So let’s compare one source of protein, grass fed beef:

SUNLIGHT->GRASS->BEEF->HUMAN

In the right conditions this is sustainable until the sun burns us out of existence.

vs

Creatine Powder:

ACETIC ACID (REFINED PETROLEUM)+[MINED LIMESTONE (MORE FOSSIL FUEL USE)+COKING COAL(ANOTHER NON-RENEWABLE SOURCE MATERIAL, PRODUCED IN FURNACES +2000 CELSIUS) ->CYANAMIDE]->CREATINE POWDER->HUMAN

So perhaps, vegans can only exist and thrive in the modern synthetic chemical laden world of the petrochemical era, a truly limited time when taken in the context of human evolution?

It is great that you have a very responsive blog to talk to. I also appreciate the professional response, keeping arguments aside. The topic of food is a very socially sensitive one, that many people take personally. It becomes a more sensitive subject to those that take food seriously.

Can you speak to the differences between “The Paleo Diet” vs. “The Paleo Solution”?

Matt

I can see a spectrum of good human function with regards to meat intake, when I see an increase in grains, legumes and dairy, I see problems arise. I can track this via blood work, performance…you name it.

I watched the video…they are discussing runners and endurance athletes. If you look at the vegan body-building sites those people DO NOT get by on fruits and veggies. They use protein powders which seems to just support the absolute need for a concentrated protein source. Joe Friel is also a coach at the OTC:
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/

We can wage theory wars all day…what recommend is folks try it, be it vegan or paleo, and see if they look, feel and perform better. Do biomarkers of health improve? That’s what I hang my hat on. I HAVE done the vegan approach. Ulcerative colitis was one of my participation prizes…it did not work for me, I do not see it work well for our clients, especially relative to a paleo approach.

My intention in posting a response was to simply place my opinion, and not to give other people my alternative. I have no medical degree or advanced study in human physiology or Epidemiology. My opinions are based completely on life experience and my own interest and study of nutritional literature.

I will be honest that much of your book is brilliant. I believe that it can be life changing, especially for those that are moving from the average American processed meals, refined carbohydrates, cheese, animal fats and virtually no fresh fruit and vegetables.

I however believe that it is still primarily focused on Macro nutrients. It argues that without meat you will always be hungry, not satisfied. Those that try to follow your diet as vegetarians should use a processed egg protein power & supplements?

I firmly believe that the human body is perfectly capable to handle meat intake on occasion, but only if balanced with large amounts of green leaf vegetables and fruit (also a source of high protein). Animal protein is emphasized too much in western society as your only source of complete protein. It is socially en-grained in our society.

I like Dr. Fuhrman’s example: What has more protein? Ham, Tomatoes or oatmeal? The answer is that they all have about the same amount per calorie. The difference is tomatoes & oatmeal are packaged with fiber, vitamins and cancer fighting micro-nutrients while Ham is packaged with Fat & Cholesterol. This same principle really applies when comparing all dark green vegetables to meat.

I am a bit of a Dr Fuhrman fan boy, so as a video for thought. Here is a video of Dr Fuhrman speaking about athlete’s & protein intake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDCkJ0XRFqo&feature=player_embedded#!

Genetically we may be the same as those people from our past, but this does not mean that eating the way they did is correct for today.

The growing epidemic of obesity and disease in wealthy countries is caused by an industrialized for profit food supply, lack of food education, lowering of exercise for daily living, and in my opinion a society that has become addicted to foods that lack dense micro-nutrient value. The human body is starving for nutrients, therefore we continue to eat and eat more calories of this unhealthy food. Your body then lacks the power it needs to defend itself from disease.

There also seems to be an argument going on over muscle building and athlete’s. There is more involved in a persons ability to gain muscle and perform than what they eat. Lets be honest with ourselves. Science and medicine has shown us how to gain muscle and performance fast. Special diets have shown to grow a persons natural muscle building ability past it’s normal potential. This however does not mean that this way of eating is healthy for the human body. You can be fit and muscular, but still suffer debilitating disease in the end.

Tommy, please comment on this.

And also, I want you to REALLY think this through: You are suggesting that humans developed cardiovascular disease on their ancestral (evolutionary) diet. this IS what you are saying. Name one other organism that this happens to. That the ANCESTRAL diet causes cardiovascular disease.

Tommy, the answer is NONE. We need agriculture to see this problem. Our pets get sick from the food we feed them, not when they eat their ancestral diets. Cattle get sick when fed grains, so do humans.

Can switching to a plant based diet improve the health of someone who eats a terrible, processed food diet? Of course, but Tommy you need to be better informed and THINK this through.

I am a 51 yr old female trainer and can lift in these ranges: BP 225#, squat 425# to parallel and leg press 1,800#. This is on a whole foods diet of; predominantly grass pastured beef, organic vegetables/tubers, wild harvested berries, raw organic nuts and limited amounts of raw, grass-fed dairy. BTW-I checked out the link that your provided w/training journals of ‘vegan’ athletes. While some of thier physiques were mildy impressive, included in their diets ware: Creatine wafers, BCAA’s and many other protein concentrate supplements! Hmmmm…… their strength and endurance cannot be contributed solely to a vegan ‘foods’ after all, especially since the best source of creatine is good ole fashioned red meat.

Vegetarians can postulate all they want about the ethical or ecological reasons not to eat animal protein, but when they attempt to portray that ideology as ideal for muscle gains, it borders on the ridiculous and flies in the empirical face of every pro bodybuilder/strongman/champion powerlifter out there.

Here is what one participant said:
“From vegetarian to paleo in 6 weeks… This was a trial for me (not as in hard but as in a test period). I wanted to see if changing my diet would make a difference in my training. Oh. My. God. There is no going back. There is no comparison. I’m convinced and converted.”

Now, are you chaps consuming ANY concentrated protein sources (tofu, temphe, protein powders) or are you getting your nutrition from WHOLE food? If you use any concentrated sources then my response is SO WHAT? I get my protein from a cow (grass–>cow) you get yours out of a nutraceutical fermentation vat (Grass–>fermentation vat, chemical processing, can-o-soy protein).

All that you guys prove is that a higher protein diet is necessary for most folks in strength athletics. BTW- I do not go stalking around vegan forums trying to convert the masses. You guys are religious fanatics. If your way of eating works for you, great. I tried it your way, was sick and do great with this approach. If you took the time to read any of this blog you;d know that back story.

I guess you missed all of Joe Friel’s athletes…those folks with world championships, olympic team placements…that eat a paleo diet?
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/

How come NONE of these pro meat bloggers have any real muscle with all that protein talk?

Come and see if ANY of you guys can out bench press/dead lift us at
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com
http://www.veganstrength.org
http://www.organicathlete.org

Here is the website for the doubters.
http://www.pcrm.org

Mike Arnstein ran a 2:28 marathon this year at Boston. He is the FASTEST runner in the raw food movement today. Long time vegan and now powered by sweet fruit. How come there is no competitive athletes eating this ‘paleo fat diet?’ Please shut me up and show me cos Im sick of seeing cardio and muscle deficient paleo crew trying to debunk the china study that us elite athletes are thriving on.

Can you debunk me with a high fat eating paleo athlete?

Didnt think so..

Love, peace and banana grease.

Durianrider

Hilarious, the ‘fruit is high glycemic’ myth is still strong in the peleo world.

Do you know of any side by side comparison tests that have been performed on a single person on a Vegan and Paleo diet. Test’s that would show concrete data from blood tests, weight, fat, AA/EPA ratios, etc,etc.

I have yet to see one of these anywhere.

You said “Rather than reject the China Study, why not test it? Get a comprehensive blood test, become a Vegan for 6 months, check your blood again…”

I have, many have. The results suck.

Have you tried an “paleo approach?” Can you hold yourself to the high standards you are PREACHING to others? As to the macro-evolution topic I simply offer this:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

Unfortunately people are not interested in the truth. People believe what they want to believe, what fits nicely into their worldview…You need to decide, do you want the truth, or do you want to keep believing the lies that the “system” keeps feeding us?

The idea that “life” resulted from randomness is unscientific and defies common sense…

The first question we need to ask ourselves is what is “life”…What distinguishes life from non-life? Specified-Complexity is one way to distinguish life from non-life…”Life” is extremely complex, beyond man’s comprehension…It is also extremely specific…Our DNA and the systems that make life work are extremely specific (in the same way computer code is or chemical reactions are). There is NO scientific experiment that has every been conducted that can demonstrate how extremely complex AND extremely specific systems develop over long periods of time…In fact, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states the opposite, that any closed system will move from a more ordered state to a less ordered state (The universe is a closed system, unless of course, you believe in God)…

Another question…Scientists are quick to point out that DNA fits perfectly into the definition of a “language” or “code”. It’s an extremely complex, highly compacted amount of information stored in a “code”…What scientific experiment can demonstrate that information can “evolve” and be stored in a coded format over long periods of time? Common sense tells us that information must come from intelligence…Language and codes must come from a mind…NOT random mutations over long periods of time…

We need to stop believing the lies we are fed in our sick culture…and start thinking for a change…Follow the money…The Dairy Industry, the Meat Industry, the “food” Industry, Supplement Industry, the “Healthcare Industry”, our Government…Our consumer driven culture encourages profit and any cost…to fill their pockets with your money…WAKEUP PEOPLE…FOLLOW THE MONEY…STOP BEING SO GULLIBLE …

In summary, macro-evolution is a big lie. Scientists risk their careers if they voice their disbelief in it…Therefore, Loren Cordain’s argument that is based in part on “macro-evolution” is junk science in the highest degree and should be dismissed outright.

Rather than reject the China Study, why not test it? Get a comprehensive blood test, become a Vegan for 6 months, check your blood again, and see for yourself how your health will improve! You will lose weight, your blood pressure will drop, your cholesterol will drop…Then draw your own conclusions and make your decision…

Not really relevant to the china study (but my memories of trudging through the book reminded me of protein intake), but I know you and Poliquin like the 1g protein per lb of bodyweight for the obese metabolically deranged diabetic types (for satiety and thermic effect), and I know high protein intake isn’t a problem unless you have an existing kidney problem, but what do you do with clients who are diabetic to the point of having damaged kidney function? Or do they have to be really far gone in type 2 diabetes before this will be an issue? Would a lower protein, lower carb, higher fat approach be applicable here?

Cheers.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/my-response-to-denises

Dr Campbell’s response…
http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/campbells-response-to-denises

This is the very point that Cordain made in the Protein Debate with Campbell, generate a theory which offers predictive value. The China study the vegan paradigm offer NOTHING in this regard. It is not supported by evolutionary theory, optimum foraging strategy, Game theory nor the clinical trials which offer substantive data.

The following is Dr Campbell’s rebuttal. The rest can be found http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/campbell_china_response.htm

” China Project results are no exception to these limitations of single experiments. It was very large, unique and comprehensive but it was observational (i.e., not interventional), simply observing things as they were at a single point in time. It provided an exceptionally large number of hypothetical associations (shown as statistically assessed correlations) that may indicate but does not prove cause and effect relationships. These unanalyzed correlations are considered raw or crude. It is highly unusual to find such ‘raw’ data in a scientific report because, in part, untrained observers may misunderstand such raw data.

For the monograph, we were somewhat uncertain whether to publish such raw data but decided to do so for two principle reasons. First, we wanted to make these data available to other researchers, while hoping that data misuse would not be a significant problem. Second, because these data were collected in rural China at a time when data reliability might have been questioned, we chose to be as transparent as possible. We discussed data use and misuse on pp. 54-82 of the China Project monograph that curiously was overlooked by Masterjohn and Jay’Y’.

For instance, it is true that we shouldn’t focus on individual nutrients while ignoring conditioning inter-relationships that apply when we eat various groups of whole foods, but how can we even speculate properly about such relationships if we (like Campbell) don’t want to look at the nutritional conditions under which Homo Sapiens evolved. Such holistic speculation would be totally arbitrary.

No one should listen to anyone about diets if the evolutionary perspective isn’t accounted for at least implicitly.

I said, “let me stop you there, Doc. I read GCBC”

He said, “good, but we know even more than that now. Animal protein causes an autoimmune reaction – it’ similar to what happens to cannibals. The immune reaction causes that” [points to the enormous cutaway model of atherosclerosis provided by a statin manufacturer] “Mammals – cattle, pigs are the worst because we’re most closely related, fowl is better, fish is okay sometimes.”

Me: “Um, shit. Anything I can read about that? ”

Dr: “The China Study!. You should approach an all-vegetable diet, if you’re able to.”

I didn’t read TCS but has anyone else heard this autoimmune reaction to beef stuff? I don’t see it anywhere in the Protein Debate, and the only cannibal disease I can find on the internets appears to be caused by eating brains.

Wouldn’t it be nice for her server to crash from all the people interested in her work?