Very enlightening, thank you. I’m new to all of Paleo, CF and you so I’m trying to keep an open mind here.

That said, I’ve been looking for a CF club in my area to give it a shot and frankly have NOT been impressed by the “customer service” I’ve encountered, especially for a newbie. With maybe one exception out of 5 I’ve looked at so far, it seems the business model was designed primarily to keep martial arts clubs financially solvent, at least in my area.

Reading your post basically brought it all together for me.. What you describe dove-tails w/ my experiences in a general sense so it appears to me to be coming from the top of the organization. There seems to be a heck of a lot of arrogance even at the ‘small box’ level in my opinion. From what little I’ve seen so far, I’m getting the feeling that CF will be nothing more than a bygone “fad” in the general fitness market if these things you speak about don’t change.

I just listened to POD 91 and what you and Greg say about CFHQ WOD’s really hit home.. I’ve had a PL total of over 1600 (raw) at 195 lbs, played college football in a speed position, and as of a month ago was still capable of a 1150 CF total and 355 bench at the age of 47 and 172 lbs. I mention the stats only to – hopefully – amplify my opinion that the CFHQ WOD’s would bury me within a month; definitely not for the average consumer or even those with a decent level of base fitness.

And you are 100% correct in POD 91, they are missing a huge opportunity in all of mind-share, market-share, bucks and last but not certainly not least, actually helping people. A great example of them missing the boat would be my wife who would absolutely LOVE the community and instructor led group format of CF, but there is no way I could recommend that she try it based on her health history, etc. even though I think a weight-bearing orientated fitness program would help her tremendously. So, basically out of 2 potential customers CF has lost them both, and that was pretty much my conclusion before I even saw your post here..

However, I’ve been very impressed by your open-mindedness and style and the POD casts are priceless for both the entertainment value and the information they convey. Thank you. For sure I’m in your camp on this one and please keep doing all that you do.

Speaking as a newbie to all of this, may I offer this up: As hard as it may be, and as much as I enjoy your passion in all that you do, leave your personal feelings and history out of why you would not recommend CF – just stick to the facts. I think in the long run that would only strengthen your argument about why CF is not ideal, especially for beginners.

- Dave

I find that when i eat a diet that is high in protein and fat and low in carbs (low because the carbs are from vegetables only), that my energy suffers until I “cheat” and load up on carbs again. However, it takes a day or 2 for those carbs to fully inflate/reach my muscles.

I came across this thread by accident but now I’m curious and forgive me for seeming so ignorant, but what’s the difference between the zone and paleo?

From what I can gather, the zone promotes healthy food choices where you weigh and measure, but Paleo recommends the same thing without the weighing and measuring.

Like I said, forgive my ignorance, but what am I missing?

Thanks

I began my CrossFit experience here in Queens, NY back in February and in our foundations program, they recommended either trying Zone or Paleo. They didn’t try to hard sell us on either one, so I decided to start with Zone. I read Entering the Zone and Mastering the Zone and enjoyed reading both books. Although it’s not perfect, it does put an emphasis on favorable vs. unfavorable foods, so it got me started in the right direction.

Once I finally switched to Paleo when our box started a 6-week Paleo Challenge (which I’ve been blogging about at my site), I immediately started noticing results both in weight-loss and performance gain during the WODs.

I’ve been trying to figure out why there’s been so much confusion about the Zone and Paleo in Crossfit and this sheds a lot of light. Thanks so much for sharing!

O, and I’ve met tons of people who tried Zone but ultimately found success in Paleo. I’ve never met someone who switched from Paleo to Zone.

Take a look at the Russian off-season training program for elite track and field athletes from 1920-1970. It’s Crossfit, pretty much exactly, with all those elements.

And there was a reason that they dropped it in the 1970′s… not specific enough. Good enough for Joe Public though, so it’s great that it’s been packaged up for all us plebs, but i am getting sick and tired of hearing everyone say that Glassman’s a genius for “inventing” it.

Recently I noticed stuff on the CrossFit Journal about Zone diet. Every since I learned of the fact that CrossFit supported the Zone theory I just hated the idea. My prejudice was not based on any research or real understanding, I just simply could not see how CrossFit could put its weight behind a dietary program that did not have food quality as its primary focus. It just seemed to run completely at odds with what I understand about CrossFit philosphy.

If I had read this article earlier, I would not have bothered posting those comments.

If a dispute ever arose between our affiliate and HQ, I honestly believe the community at our box would stand 100% behind our trainers. One thing about a good CrossFit affiliate, it’s the quality of the training methods and the atmostphere created by the trainers what brings about the expansion and keeps people coming back. It’s not the CrossFit brand that does it, and there is nothing Dave Castro can do about that!

In my training and coming to CrossFit I have seen Robb talk a couple times. When I first started paying attention to my diet I was zoning but I was zoning on what I would call processed food. This is where the quote “you CANNOT weigh and measure shit food and get the same results” comes into play. Since going paleo I have seen much better results than when I was zoning with processed food. I recently hurt my back on a fall while rock climbing and have not been able to hit a WOD in over a month. I have stayed paleo and although my muscle density has depleted quite a bit, I really have seen no visible fat or rounding more than what was there beforehand. Better fuel will always lead to better performance.

“I told him to take my high-paying nutrition gig and stick it up his ass.” Never drop yourself to their level Robb. Although this comment was justified from what I have heard from your side of the story, dropping to Castro’s level is never the answer.

“Of the panel, NOT ONE PERSON thought the crossfit.com WOD would get a person to optimal strength/conditioning levels the fastest.” Although I am no where near where my potential should be – YET – I think the http://www.crossfit.com WODs are a great place for folks to start, but if you plan on competing, it will not prepare you for the 3 – 10 movements a day you will need to perform for the games.

Open Source is surely the way to go. This is a community and I am happy to be a part of it and excited to see where it goes. Thank you for your contributions Robb and I look forward to attending one of your seminars if you ever bring them to SoCal again.

Any chance those video recordings will see the light? It would be hilarious to see Dave “lovehandle” Castro loose it on film

keep up the good work
Tobias

In sociological terms, we seem to be looking at an autodidactic leadership of a closed institution: hence, it can do no wrong since it is all knowing with an evidential basis of “I said so.” However, you offer a clue with the Zone Diet: follow the money trail! In that regard, to the extent CrossFit has a philosophy it would be called “a commercial theory of exercise.”

With more than 50 years of training experience and a comprehension of centuries of physical culture, I simply cannot recall a movement other than this that bears many of the features of a cult, replete with cult mind control. Big ones of the past – for example, Bernarr MacFadden – prospered by disseminating Open Source principles, putting emphasis on fitness education empowering autonomy of training.

Good work, Robb!

Ken

Sorry to dredge this tired old saw up.

I’d heard about this blow up last year but I had a baby on the way and didn’t care that much.

I met you at a level 1 cert in SD in ’08 and enjoyed my brief conversation with you.

Since then I have run a club out of my garage gym. I feel that I am successful in that my peeps are uninjured and continue to set PR’s. This based on CF methodology.

Yet I am increasingly uncomfortable with CF and have not used MP WOD in over a year, for myself or my peeps. Although a relatively inexperienced coach, I can better program to my folks’ weaknesses’ and strengths’ than someone who has never seen, met or watched them. I am also increasingly concerned with the lack of periodization in the CFMP programming.

As I learn more, I continue to take inputs from other sources: Pavel, Everett, Daniels, etc. As I take these inputs I become painfully aware of my own deficiencies and weak-points as a coach.

Keep up the good work. I’ll buy the book.

We ahve been blessed with a business mentor who is one of our clients. Great guy, sold his internet based business for $83 Million at the age of 28…very successful and the first to admit he has nothing but opinion with regards to each new project. He left Nicki and I with a doosey the other day: What got you where you are will NOT get you where you are going. learn, grow, adapt and shoot for humility and joy in what you are doing. CF is so full of talent, I really hope they get a handle on the arrogance…it will be their undoing otherwise.

I’ve recently had a discouraging interaction with Dave and some other Crossfit leadership. I gotta get to work, and maybe I’ll write more later, but the gist of this is it seems the Crossfit people actually believe that their expertise in fitness has some sort of larger import. They’ve taken some success in FITNESS PROGRAMMING into areas where they have ZERO expertise. Sure, Crossfit’s an effective protocol, but developing it doesn’t make you good at anything else! Not at planning events, not at measuring performance, not at understanding specialization, nor nutrition, nor recovery, nor injury prevention, not accounting, not photography, not flying airplanes.

It seems a lot of the Crossfit leadership have become reactionary know-it-alls who are turning lots and lots of people off. I know I’ve been turned off.

Expertise is a funny thing. Most experts readily acknowledge their weaknesses outside of the subject matter and they are ENERGETIC in pursuit of learning to reduce their weaknesses. The Crossfit folks seems to be creating their own form of expertise, where core knowledge in one specific thing suddenly gives license to a whole host of others.

In my interactions with them, some of the Crossfit people, Dave included, came off as officious and narrow-minded. I can’t put it better or more politely than that, and I won’t try.

Robb, I’m sorry for your experience. I certainly know where it’s come from, and for the Crossfit leadership it’s not a good omen.

This isn’t about Paleo or Zone, it really isn’t; though thats the face being presented.

This is about Greg Glassman, its like we want to blame the organization (HQ) not the man but this is what its about.

When I came to CrossFit I invested $40,000.00 to get my gym up and to pour my heart into it. I have wanted this most of my life and CrossFit was a vehicle. I bought into a brand but never really became a Koolaid drinker. This very quickly set me apart. I have t-shirts in the name of my gym, business cards, signs, a several thousand dollar website, I have invested my time and life and created a following, not of CrossFit but at my gym.
I expressed, much like Rob did, my disatisfaction, except about the brand and what followed was a verbal ass reaming from a man I respected.

The man behind the curtain has his faults as we all do but what people see on the surface and what lies beneath are simply two different people. This is simply what people are pointing out. What they thought they believed and what is….simply aren’t matching up.

This situation was a catalyst for me…I chose to no longer affiliate with nor spread the name of CrossFit. Before anyone especially the Koolaid drinkers jump in my ass about what CrossFit has done for me, well it was nothing, their brand name here means nothing, most have never heard of it, I put a ton of money into it, I wake up everyday and go sale it on the street, I advertise, I bust my ass, I have never got visits from the affiliate directors or asked how my business is going and yet HQ’s business spreads and grows. How many affiliates are millionaires? Out of 1500 or so how many, how about the Glassmans? So, in essence I own nothing. I am not sorry if this pisses people off but the over the rainbow crap has finally filled my cup.

CrossFit didn’t change your life, your coach did, or if you found workouts online thank the man that put it on there, but the lifting that you are doing is age old and the concepts age old, not a new novel or new idea just newly packaged.

What am I giving up by giving up the name is the money I invested, the time I put in, basically I have to start over but as scary as that seems to me, I won’t spend another day if can help it pushing the name that benefits the man.

Now that Lisbeth has closed the comments on the Affiliate blog, I just want you to know that my response to her “haha we don’t moderate” nonsense was that evidently, since my copy-paste of your reply taken from your blog went through no questions asked while your own post was blocked for several hours, it is not the CONTENT of your post that got caught in the filter, but your NAME (or email address, IP, website). Same for Greg Everett.

Congratulations, you and Greg are officially personae non gratae on the CF Affiliate blog. I don’t know if you should be sad or proud.

Best of luck,

Third party observer

There’s a reason this happened. I’m grateful you are working on your book, the sooner it gets published the sooner I can purchase and give to friends/family as gifts. What I got from your nutrition cert. was priceless. Thank you!
Michele

Nope – your response won’t see the light of day – you knew that though. Control the variables. Couch did respond to you though:

“Let me share a difference between a bit of scientific fact and applied clinical knowledge.

Dr. Sears, when asked about sodium intake, offered that sodium retention was governed by aldosterone and that aldosterone was controlled in turn by insulin, which is ultimately controlled by carbohydrate intake.

I asked later who knew what to do if a client found herself very dizzy on standing days after being put “in the Zone”. Nobody knew. The answer is/was “get her to salt her food and see if it goes away”.

Same mechanism. One clinical knowledge the other not. We need a cert based on successful clinical experience.

Our old cert was sketchy on science, at best, and entirely bereft of clinical knowledge/experience.

It’s entirely my fault. We’re fixing it. ” – Couch

1-The seminar I provided was 50% food quality, 50% weighing and measuring. I have nearly 50 complete certs worth of video to prove this point. The 2500+ attendees of the cert can validate this point. My contention has been that food quality is the most important issue. HQ disagrees on this point. I have thousands of data points on this topic that I have collected over the past 5 years. We will see those data sets in a formalized setting in the coming months. I have ALWAYS recommended (look back to the 2003 archives for example) starting with a paleo/quality approach first, then weigh and measure for best effect. What we have seen however are numerous examples of people abandoning Zone proportionality and lack of quality emphasis, and seeing dramatic improvements. Coach Glassman conveniently ignores this information. That’s no longer my concern as I am not a member of HQ and thus not obliged to attempt to fix its shortcomings.
I also apparently have a lack of clinical experience and scientific training! Remarkable. Apparently my CV was poorly circulated at HQ.

2-Coach Glassman is alluding that this is all a PR/marketing stunt to push Paleo Brands. That my insistence on food quality is something new. This is remarkable given my YEARS of consistent message on this topic. NewSpeak lives apparently. This also sounds remarkably similar to when CF NorCal left CrossFit several years ago in a protest of practices endemic to HQ. Our departure changed nothing (as evidenced by the Black Box Summit) but numerous people in CF were told we left to “Join Mark Twight and Gym Jones”. This is straight out of the same playbook.

3-It is ironic given Coach Glassman’s disdain for academia that MD’s and PHD’s mean “quality” or “competence”. An interesting and timely paradigm shift.

I want to make clear that my copyrighted material (the stuff not based on clinical or scientific experience) is NOT to be used at future CF Nutrition certs. It WAS used at the last event despite my communications that it is not to be used.

Off to practice Pseudo-Science and delude the masses…

And since HQ has espoused the virtues of the community as such a key part of advancing human performance, it is ludicrous to now claim that this event and your replacement have “nothing” to do with advancing human performance. When the CF community suffers, the advancement of human performance suffers. Vague analogies, no apologies, and smarmy videos from the same idiot who caused the problem just serve to weaken the community and thereby GREATLY diminish the ability of that community to advance human performance. Everybody with enough sense to lace up their shoes knows this. Tony and HQ should know this. That they haven’t acknowledged this and acted upon it speaks volumes.

Tony Budding:
“Jason Ashman (several posts here, but primarily 66) has said that CrossFit is now in the business of selling image. He and I have emailed privately on the matter, and there is no doubt that Jason is a true CrossFitter and has genuine intent on helping the community. He made a very long and well articulated case for why we need to be concerned about image and damage control and people’s feelings. And so, it is with complete respect that I disagree.

CrossFit is in the business of improving human performance in the real world. If you want to get fit, or help your clients get fit, there is little doubt left that constantly varied functional movements at high intensity combined with a moderate diet is the best way to do it.

This answer did not exist 10 years ago, certainly not in the format and availability that it does now. We all have Greg and Lauren Glassman to thank for that. Sure, barbells and gymnastics and interval training and the Zone and the Caveman diet all existed long before. But saying CrossFit is nothing new because of that is like saying a great meal or a great novel is nothing new because the same ingredients and words have been around forever.

Jason wrote me that this simplistic approach worked in the past, but we are now too big and too successful to ignore image, and this event has tarnished our image. I don’t believe this is true. The truth always comes out in the end, and the truth here is that we are fully committed to providing you with the most resources possible for you to become as fit as you want to be. We have created a community around the pursuit of fitness, and we remain as loyal to serving that community as we ever have been.

Jason says that part of serving that community is that we need to issue public statements about what happened at the BBS and why Robb got fired. I disagree. The way we serve the community is to provide a forum and culture where the open presentation and debate of effective fitness concepts can occur. This is what this video is about. It’s not spin. It’s who we are.

Why are we not talking about the BBS and Robb’s being replaced? Because they are not about the pursuit of effective fitness. They are about personalities, and such topics don’t belong on the CrossFit site. This is a divorce of sorts, and any of you that have been through divorce or had close friends go through a divorce know how painful it is. On a personal level, this whole thing has been very upsetting. For a long time, I thought Robb and Nicki were close friends. They came to my wedding last year (and the majority of attendees were friends and family unassociated with CrossFit). This is the second time our personal and professional relationship has gone south, and I honestly don’t understand exactly why.

But that’s all I’m going to say about that because it has nothing to do with CrossFit or our purpose here. Is this whole kerfuffle about fitness in any way? No. I guess there is some percentage of the population out there that thinks we fired Robb because he sells Paleo over the Zone. That’s ludicrous. He’s been a Paleo guy since long before he started touring the country with the CrossFit Nutrition certs. Do you think we didn’t know that before?

Those of you think what happened at the BBS caused us to fire Robb are mistaken. And, that’s all I’m going to say about that because it’s none of your business. Robb has been told why and that is all that is needed. He may not believe it, but that isn’t our problem.

For those of you feeling like the big bad powerful corporate CrossFit can and does arbitrarily destroy people’s lives, check your facts. Rip wasn’t fired. He left to do basically the same thing he did under the CrossFit banner now under his own. Rip has made great contributions to the world of fitness, and for that I’m grateful. Many of them of are presented in the CrossFit Journal and always will be.

Robb and Greg Everett and Dutch were not deaffiliated. They have not been blackballed or slandered or censored. Robb was removed from his role as the nutrition presenter. Period. We’re like a sports team. We changed a player on the team. It happens. You still have Robb if you want him. He has a blog that’s just as easy to find as CrossFit. I’m sure he’ll do seminars, and I hear he’s writing a book.

So, the bottom line is that I disagree with Jason. CrossFit HQ is about fitness and training, and the communities that treasure them. I am proud to be part of an amazing community that values hard work and the integrity of results more than image or political correctness. If it turns out that I’m naive and Jason is in fact correct, that my job as the Director of Media and Web Content is really more about spin, branding and damage control than fitness, then I’m in the wrong position.”

It seems as if there is always rift i.e. Boyle v. Glassman and now this. I don’t like it as it interferes with all the efforts and contributions by dedicated people all around the world to make Crossfit “The Preferred Method of Training”!

Hopefully, this will all blow over and all parties come to their senses.

apologies for offending you. I may have gotten a little carried away.

I will try out OPT’s programming.

Thanks!

Also, Will has removed the proverbial curtain to expose the wizard in Glassman by posting that excerpt from Jesse. Critical thinkers still enamored with CF take note.

http://www.slimmingthoughts.blogspot.com

So you can check out that info there, (until the response is properly posted here).

“Charles Darwin had a friend named Thomas Henry Huxley, who was known as Darwin’s Bulldog. Huxley publicly defended Darwin and completely embarrassed critics. I nominate Dave to recieve the title of “Wolf’s Bulldog.”

Wow, thanks for the insight. I personally was not aware of Mr. Huxley’s role in the defense of Darwin’s theories. While I don’t think I have earned that comparison; I certainly appreciate the sentiment, and hope that Robb’s findings, theories, and insights, will become as revolutionary and widespread as Darwin’s. If I can do my little bit to help make that happen, then I would truly be honored to have a little footnote in history as “Wolf’s Bulldog”.

Looks like you spend hours a day online. Why don’t you focus some of that energy on your own web site?

http://www.crossfitlouisville.blogspot.com/

Chris

anyway, it sucks. Sorry bro!
- Aaron

By the way here is CrossFit before it was CrossFit…lets get over this Coach invented this….

In 1968 (Pat) O’Shea developed a system that he designated “aerobic” weight training. He commented that it was based on the two principles developed by Cooper relative to aerobic training and the development of circulo-respiratory endurance:
(a) If the exercise develops a heart rate of 150 beats per minute or higher, the development effects begin five minutes after the activity starts and continues as long as the activity is performed
(b) If the activity does not develop a sustained heart rate of 150 beats per minute, the activity must be continued considerably longer than five minutes, such as long distance running, cycling, etc.

O’Shea’s system is based on a circuit interval training approach, with progressive increases in the amount of resistance used in the exercises … his research reflected that students participating in the program reached a sustained rate of 154 beats per minute for 20 minutes, and the group registered significant improvement in cardio-vascular fitness over an eight-week period.

Several years ago the writer designed a group of weight training routines to develop circulo-respiratory endurance in Olympic weight lifters. The interval training principle was employed, using weights in the 10-30 percent range of maximum with a progressive increase in repetitions (20 to 40) on each exercise for two sets and with varying rest periods of one to three minutes between sets and exercises.

Ten exercises at one station composed a routine. The exercises used were Olympic lift skill movements (press, snatch, clean and jerk) and explosive weight training assistance movements (jumping squats, etc.) interspersed with one stationary running exercise. It took 35 to 45 minutes to complete the entire routine.

Pulse rates during a routine ranged from 122 to 185 during the entire period which is in the pulse range recommended by Gerschler for use with interval training programs for runners. The routines developed physiological aspects of both aerobic and anaerobic endurance.

The preceding paragraphs are excerpted from John Jesse’s remarkable book titled “Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia, published by The Athletic Press, Pasadena, CA, in 1974.

One small excerpt but worth reading….nothing new under the sun just BRANDED very well.

Jon; Well stated facts. The personal feelings/issues between HQ, Robb, Greg, & the likes, are an aside from the fact that what appears to be @ least several hundred people have good ideas & great intentions for the betterment & survival of Crossfit. Looks to me like Helen Keller is in charge of HQ’s complaint department.

Barry, I was starting to see some objective views in your posts, where did they go? You now agree w/Dave Castro & see why he acted the way he did defending HQ’s views? Weren’t Robb & Greg defending their views as well, but in a more dignified manner? And if Dave Castro wasn’t operating in official HQ capacity then how could he tell Robb & Greg they were finished with Crossfit? Sounds to me like he was speaking for HQ , or did it just mean that that he was going to “tell the teacher” on them? Dave Castro should’ve gotten his ass kicked by every attendee for attempting to ruin what was otherwise a very successful meeting, but everyone else there acted as adults. And your comment about HQ having a backbone & not kowtowing to protect their beliefs, isn’t that exactly what Robb & Greg were/are doing? Barry, it looks like you have successfully adopted the double standards of HQ, do as we say, not as we do.

Dave; You’ve got him on the ropes, a few more blows to the ego & he’s out!

I have been to Greg’s O lifting seminar twice & found it very helpful for myself, as well as helping to teach others. He was nothing but professional & used humor to enhance his public speaking, which makes it fun & keeps the audience interested & alert. He takes digs @ himself just as much as he does anyone else, which shows he’s not attacking anyone personally.

As for Robb, I have had the pleasure of him training me, as well as working side by side with him. We all know he’s amazingly smart, but what pisses me off me is the few people attacking his credibility & morales to stand up for his not only beliefs, but his knowingness that what he teaches actually works. He puts in hours upon hours researching & experimenting with nutrition to help thousands of people he doesn’t even know. Wow, what a selfish, egotistical asshole. Robb, Thank you!

Any chance you can you link to the section of California Law on the 3rd party investigation stuff if it is in fact online. I find the topic interesting. Thanks

Yes, this is simply a brand issue. I can get “certed” in CrossFit, Spinning, ACSM, NSCA, whatever, but some affiliates bought into the fact that they helped build the brand. Without the internet and the viral spread of the community it simply would be just another training method…period that is a fact. Greg didn’t just magically come up with this in his garage, they were trying to find a “way” to make some money. They were trainers to their own word that slept in the gym training clients. So, apparently they were like all the other trainers trying to make a living and trying find a way to be successful. Trying different things until they hit upon a marketing concept. There is reference to training like this from the 1970′s in a wrestling strength book. This is nothing new…What was new was the community that wrought it and the power of the internet…that is fact.

We took a love to the fact that WE are the brand and therefore deserve a say. If you disagree fine, I don’t and believe that we do. The problem Barry is many of us deeply loved it not just as a business but as something more that I cannot philosophize (my word). Also, not as blind koolaid cult sychophants. So, it is not a simple Greg can do whatever the hell he wants and screw the input unless your one of the inner buds. People are walking away because of this, because the feel hurt, let down, whatever, I don’t really give a damn if you think they are weak or should grow up. They gave a shit and wanted to help and have been getting trounced.

I appreciate your “logical” arguements but you miss the bigger picture and so do many of inner group that this is about heart not logic, community and family, not business. Leadership not management and quite frankly unless you by into the pure brand of koolaid… Greg is short on leadership.

Perhaps they will awaken, I had one interaction with Dave and he was a Dick then and I don’t really care if people say thats his “personality”, being a dick and being unprofessional is just that. I served 11 years in the military and for the last 3 was an instructor and never and I mean never would I stand up and say what he said to an instructor or in front of a class…It is pure and simple classlessness…there is no excuse…period

Dave won’t be trounced, the games that are and will continue to grow are hosted on his property, so lets not talk about fairness. 1500 rough affiliates or just brand spreaders if you like are not speaking, 150 or so have left, some after just a few months because they felt that what is paraded and what is real are two very different things…Again Barry you do have some great posts and I have followed it on the main page but heart not logic here Barry, life not philosophy while I respect it, in this case is a weakness…

> This is the first time he has created a liability issue, and he has likely >been put on notice that a second offense will lead to his termination. The >Board is fine with those decisions, as Dave has otherwise been an asset, >most of the time. Fiduciary Duty is served.

Geez Barry, how many times do I have to explain this. I am NOT saying it is my opinion that CF Inc. must do a 3rd party investigation into Castro’s Follies, it is the requirement of both California and Federal Case law. Further, it is a standard requirement on all business liability policies, (due to the state and federal cases), because the Insurance Company does not want to take the chance to be responsible for the HUGE damages that can result from a company NOT following the proper procedures. Whether YOU believe a private censure is enough is both irrelevant and further demonstrates your lack of understanding of the issue. Who the F*CK cares what YOU think, (or for that matter I think). I am talking about well established legal requirements, that I would be requiring any corporation or business for which I was their counsel, (and signed their yearly statement of disclosures to their liability carriers), to employ.

Let me put it this way, If Robb came to me, (or I found out) that one of Robb’s trainers had committed a similar “violent” episode, and knowing that all of Robb’s trainers are close friends of his; I would do EVERYTHING in my power to make Robb do the 3rd party investigation, suspension of the trainer, etc. JUST AS I AM RELATING WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES CF INC. TO DO.

Nothing different. Nothing less. It would not matter if the trainer were a personal friend of mine. This is NOT about friendship. This is not about “personal loyalty”. This is about PROTECTING clients, affiliates, co-workers, and the business entity itself. Again, WHO is now going to perjur themselves by signing the yearly insurance disclosure? Someone’s going to have to, or they will have to drop their liability insurance altogether. NO, they just can’t switch, because the new policy, will have a “look back” disclosure, whereby you have to fill out the same disclosure under penalty of perjury.

>Moreover, Dave was NOT operating in an official capacity. The chairs did >not say CrossFit. He was not the personal envoy of CrossFit, Inc.

I made this easy for you above Barry. Have Dave provide his receipt for his personal payment of $1,000 to the BBS, (whereby he was simply a private paying attendee). Do that, and your “belief” that Dave was not “representing CF Inc.”, might have some traction. Short of that, I am going to go with the repeated statements of Greg, Robb, Dutch, etc., that Dave was there, (and expressly made it known), that he was there on behalf of CF Inc., (HQ). Please note, that your “belief” would also have to account for how Dave could “invite Buerger”, (or whatever the guy’s name is that wrote up the CF article on the BBS). He specifically said that he was Dave Castro’s guest. How could Castro, as simply a paying private attendee, INVITE someone to the BBS, who also did not pay to attend? The only reasonable conclusion is that Dave invited him, because Dave was the representative of CF Inc., and wanted Buerger to chronicle the event for CF Inc.

Again Barry, you can manufacture any beliefs you want. That doesn’t make them logical, persuasive, or even rational. Saying that Dave was not representing CF Inc., is easy. Presenting any FACTS, Anecdotes, or evidence to support your statement is the hard part, (because it is not accurate). I have multiple people saying Dave told them he was there representing CF Inc. I have multiple people saying they did not really want him there, (because of his past transgressions), but felt they couldn’t keep him away as he was the CF Inc. rep. I got the guy saying Dave invited him to chronicle the BBS for CF Inc. What you got? ……

See, that’s the difference between a Statement and an Argument. You are making a statement, I am making an argument. An argument that to date, you have been unable to refute or discredit with anything other than your own personal beliefs.

>Regardless, go ahead, sue them. See what happens. People threaten to >sue every day, and some of them do. And if no lawsuit is going to be >filed, then why do you care? Because that is a subtle way of insulting >CrossFit HQ and others, and because you know your chain of events will >never be tested with actual litigation?

If Robb or Greg asked me to, I would certainly consider it. However, I already stated above that I doubt either of them, (or the BBS group itself), will file such a law suit. What you apparently still DON’T understand is, that now Dave is a WALKING time bomb of liability. ANYONE, an affiliate, a co-worker, a volunteer at the Games, a motel worker where he stays at during CF Inc. trips, anyone coming into contact with Dave, and then claiming that he created a hostile work environment, assaulted them, etc., not only will have a claim for that incident, but probable punitive damages against CF Inc., their officers and directors, because they failed to properly investigate and Stop Dave from creating future such incidents.

That is why this has become a HUGE liability issue for corporations across the country, and why GL insurers are all requiring the yearly disclosures. If you really feel that strongly, and secure about your opinions, then maybe you can convince CF Inc., to appoint you as the Corporate Compliance Officer or Controller. Then you can sign the disclosure statements under penalty of perjury stating that you have made a diligent inquiry, and are unaware of any claims, events, or actions that could give rise to any current or future liability against the corporation, or any of its officers, directors or employees.

>Robb, I have to say, after reading all this, I have reached the same >conclusion Dave C. did: you need to resign your affiliation.

LOL…..”after reading all this”…..Dude, get a grip. You have been stating the same crap from your first post to your last. You agree with Dave. What Dave did does not matter. Glassman is God. Robb deserved to get fired, because he did not ‘submit’ to the all powerful dictatorial presence of HQ. All hail the Chief. Ignore the Barbarians at the Gate. et fini, et fini

>You are basically encouraging Dave, here, to go on and on about the legal >and moral culpability of CrossFit HQ, talking down to people about their >lack of knowledge of the hypertrophic potential of eccentric lifts, and >generally not acting like you like anyone who runs CrossFit.

Wait, first you are mistaken about Robb asking you to stop posting. Then you think I care or even know WTF hypertrophic potential is. Damn dude, do you actually READ any of these posts? I have been “talking down” to you, because you are spewing bullshit quasi legal jargon that you have absolutely no real understanding of. I will let Robb “talk down” to you about the technical aspects of nutrition and fitness, because I have no ability to.

If you are referencing my post regarding Lathem, please note that I was making an analogy of why his statement that “building larger muscles” is not something CF is concerned about. That was a statement clearly made by a lay person, (as I know crap about nutrition and physiology). It was making fun of his premise, not talking down to him.

>I can see perfectly well why Dave lost his temper.

So you are saying that you now “believe” and “agree” that it is excusable for Dave to physically attack someone because he did not like what they had to say? Is that your way of saying that if you could, you would reach through your monitor to attack me? Wow, the philosophy and lessons you are trying to teach us are simply staggering……

>And YOU are the one who keep saying CrossFit is falling apart. Why is it >falling apart, if it is? Because YOU keep saying it is.

Not sure if this was directed at Robb or I, but from my view, CF Inc’s apparent refusal to follow the law, dictates that they have embarked on a slippery slope of liability and corporate malfeasance that has little chance to end in anything other than disaster at some point, (unless these problems are solved).

>You are the equivalent of the Medical Doctor where the rest of us are >Physicians Assistants. MD’s know a lot more, but for run of the mill stuff >their training only makes an iota of difference very rarely. P.A’s and >Nurse Practitioners can do pretty much everything they can.

Nicely done, promoting yourself to the equivalent a 4 year degree that also requires a 2 year internship, (plus numerous board exams to secure your licensing). Wow….you really do think highly of yourself. Get a few certs., talk a big game, and voila……You are the equivalent of a highly trained medical expert.

I used a dig with Latham about him hiring you as his attorney, (given your obvious view of your expertise in the area), now I guess you can be his Nurse too. Good luck with that.

>I will make that my last post,

Yeah, I remember you said that before. I’m still betting it won’t be the last time we hear from you.

>this whole thing is making me >progressively more angry.

Angry….what happened to that mental fortitude, or focus, you know, whatever you were boasting about a few posts ago. Oh yeah, and your tenacity. I guess these qualities are as superficial as your knowledge of physiology and nutrition.

HAVE A NICE DAY =)

What you don’t realize is that most of the Crossfit community is behind Robb on this. You are doing untold damage to your own business by blasting off on these forums.

Good luck. You’ll need it !

This is not about Zone vs. Paleo or Sears vs. Wolf.

This is not about whether the medicine ball clean is an effective training tool for learning the Olympic lifts.

This IS about the attitude of HQ toward differing perspectives.

In a perfect world, this is what would’ve happened instead of the confrontation at BBS: Robb would be invited to write an article for the CFJ about how to turn clients on to the Paleo Diet (or something like it) and why it’s effective. Barry Sears would also be invited to write about the Zone Diet. Then the Comments section would soon be filled with pointed yet respectful arguments from experts and laymen alike, and we would all have the opportunity to learn and to find what works best for us.

Also, the HQ mainpage would link to Greg Everett’s “Teaching the Olympic Lifts in the CrossFit Group Setting.” Then, if Greg Glassman or Dave C or Tony Budding or anybody wanted to post a response claiming either that Everett is wrong or that his points are irrelevant to the CrossFitter, he may do so. And once again, let the comments begin, and let us all benefit from them.

HQ is not falling apart. In fact, it’s still moving forward (in the right direction?) But what saddens me is that it’s not moving forward at the pace it should because the powers that be turn a blind eye to many brilliant men and women simply because they disagree on some specifics.

I don’t know the politics behind all this or who left for what reason, but I feel like I get the big picture. Please correct me if there’s something deeper at work.

Robb, for what it’s worth, your blog is one great example of how HQ could operate better. You post your perspective and explain why it is what it is, allow all other perspectives, answer all questions, and lead by example. Thank you.

And no, the medicine ball clean is not an effective training tool for learning the Olympic lifts.

I thought Robb had deleted the previous post, so continuing discussion was pointless.

CrossFit, Inc., then, has a board of directors. Instead of 2 people we now have 5-10 people. Those people know Dave Castro, and have now likely privately excoriated Dave Castro. This is the first time he has created a liability issue, and he has likely been put on notice that a second offense will lead to his termination. The Board is fine with those decisions, as Dave has otherwise been an asset, most of the time. Fiduciary Duty is served.

Moreover, Dave was NOT operating in an official capacity. The chairs did not say CrossFit. He was not the personal envoy of CrossFit, Inc.

Regardless, go ahead, sue them. See what happens. People threaten to sue every day, and some of them do. And if no lawsuit is going to be filed, then why do you care? Because that is a subtle way of insulting CrossFit HQ and others, and because you know your chain of events will never be tested with actual litigation?

Robb, I have to say, after reading all this, I have reached the same conclusion Dave C. did: you need to resign your affiliation. You are basically encouraging Dave, here, to go on and on about the legal and moral culpability of CrossFit HQ, talking down to people about their lack of knowledge of the hypertrophic potential of eccentric lifts, and generally not acting like you like anyone who runs CrossFit.

I can see perfectly well why Dave lost his temper. I’m just not sure that CrossFit is big enough for your ego and Coach’s. I don’t buy that you are smarter than Barry Sears OR Coach. I just don’t. Barry Sears may not have much experience training athletes, but that can be fixed.

And YOU are the one who keep saying CrossFit is falling apart. Why is it falling apart, if it is? Because YOU keep saying it is. You keep saying that nobody listens. They don’t listen to YOU, because they don’t agree with you. This is not being authoritarian. This is having a backbone and not kowtowing to everyone who thinks they know better.

You are the equivalent of the Medical Doctor where the rest of us are Physicians Assistants. MD’s know a lot more, but for run of the mill stuff their training only makes an iota of difference very rarely. P.A’s and Nurse Practitioners can do pretty much everything they can.

If I put somebody on the Zone, drop their body fat to 15% or so, then tell them to supplement as needed with peanut butter or almonds, that will get them health and decent performance. Anything beyond that is fractions of a percent.

I will make that my last post, since this whole thing is making me progressively more angry.

So, there ARE applications for all this. There ARE implications for all this ie. rhabdo and significant liability. Keep posting if you like, ask questions. What was pissing me off was you telling me I don’t understand the fitness protocol Greg Glassman has publicly said I wass a “co-developer” of.

>Latham, I’m guessing you cannot provide examples of people with huge >muscles that haven’t added any strength. You probably are able to provide >examples of people with huge muscles that are not as strong as they look, >and most likely confused the former with that.

I was going to make fun of Latham by ‘supporting’ his argument by mentioning how my Belly got bigger throughout my 30′s and I got weaker, but then realized I actually knew of a real world example that would do a better job.

My 89 year old grandmother was just diagnosed with congestive heart failure. Her heart is approximately twice as large as it should be. Now we all know the heart is a muscle. When the heart is not working efficiently, it can grow, (becoming enlarged), in an effort to compensate for its weakness. This, however, actually further degrades the heart’s ability to efficiently pump blood. So I guess you could say that, ‘this is an example of someone, developing a “huge muscle” without developing any more strength’. So there ya go Latham, your example. I’m sure you will see how this ‘real world’ situation supports your position that it doesn’t matter how large your muscles are, and that we should ignore such issues. Please continue your lesson.

2nd issue. Many women don’t want to look ‘muscular’. I hear that all the time at the gym, and from people I talk to about cross fit. They worry about doing ‘weight training’, (flipping tires, picking up logs, etc.). They worry about starting to look like female body builders. Now I am not a trainer, (as if). I am sure Robb and Nicki, and every other “real” trainer out there hears these complaints/concerns a thousand fold more than I do. If you know little to nothing about how and why muscles grow, versus, how to strengthen that muscle without increasing its size, how are you going to be able to honestly, and authoritatively explain to that person how you will prevent that from happening?

Sure, even I can give a bullshit answer that will probably convince 75% of the people out there, (lower weight and lots of repetitions vs higher weight and fewer reps). I’m real good at convincing people that I know what I am talking about, (even when I don’t). But a REAL trainer, SHOULD know the real answers and know the real underlying metabolic and physiological underpinnings of the answer. That way, the trainer can design a fitness regiment for that client that WILL NOT lead to muscle growth. To say otherwise, to say that “it does not matter”, is not only bull shit, it is completely disrespectful to the client who has those real fears and concerns.

As an example, (please note not an analogy), it would be like hiring Barry to be your attorney. Good luck with that. =)

I can’t see how focusing on only one part of the deadlift will make a trainee better at both parts. I’m not a professional trainer, but I know that both parts of the deadlift are important. This seems pretty straightforward. I’m familiar with Coach Rut’s programming and I’ve read Starting Strength, and I don’t recall a recommendation to only do one part of the deadlift in a workout.

Is this something you guys are programming for your clients? Do they pick up and then drop the weight for reps, or put the weight down, strip the plates and re-rack it after each rep? I am guessing that 99% of them are just doing regular old deadlifts.

This’ll be my last post. I haven’t made any personal attacks but have received many in return. I’ll take the one about me representing CFHQ and possibly being an alias for Tony Budding as a compliment.

>Are you saying we are creating a race of Paleo Powered Attorneys?!

>What in God’s name have we done?

Hey, even us attorney’s deserve better health. It just may make us not so nasty, or in my case, at least reserve such nastiness for those who really deserve it.*

>Latham-
>Now, let’s talk liability.

Hey there, that’s my schtick. That’s like me trying to be a nutrition expert. Let’s face it, I would have little to say. ;=)

Actually, now that I think of it, I guess that would make me a perfect “expert” for CF Inc. All I could do would be to regurgitate what I have been told, and dismiss everything I had not been “prepped” for, since I have no independent knowledge base on the subject.

*Denotes that I have the exclusive power, with full right of reservation, to decide who deserves such nastiness, and to fully prosecute such beliefs without recourse to logic or factual basis, with full capacity to delude myself into believing such acts are justified and appropriate, (or constructive), as I might see fit.

>”Now that the peanut gallery is all that apparently remains, I will call this >discussion a day. ”

No…..Say it ain’t so Charlie Brown. What’s happened to your tenacity? Your mental focus? Your clear superiority over those of us in the peanut gallery require your continued obfuscations. If not you, who is going to show us the ‘right’ way?

>I think the productive aspect of it is complete.

LOL, the productive aspect of this “discussion” continues, its just that you and I were never really a part of it. I hope this is part of your realization, but I figure it is just you finally realizing that every word you type just makes you look more foolish.

>Through the input of all of you my own views have developed to what I believe to be an accurate understanding of the events and people involved.

Wow, “your views” are now an “accurate understanding”, so I guess you are trying to say that “your views” are now the truth? How convenient for you. Some might call that a ‘self reinforcing delusion’; I think, therefore I know the truth. See, I keep learning new theories and philosophies from you all the time. Thank you for your continued patronage. =)

I guess actual experience and educational background has no bering in certain situations? Weird.

Latham, I’m guessing you cannot provide examples of people with huge muscles that haven’t added any strength. You probably are able to provide examples of people with huge muscles that are not as strong as they look, and most likely confused the former with that.

Justin

Sorry Irongarmers… just some guy named Zach… not one of your man crushes

… not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Zach

Please comment on the role of eccentric vs. concentric loading in the production of rhabdomyolysis.
I’ll tackle this one for ya:
The main contributions to rhabdo are exhaustion of a muscle such that calcium homeostasis is severely disturbed and ECCENTRIC LOADING. Said another way, one may induce rhabdo via exhaustion or eccentric loading or a combination.

So Latham, CrossFit has formed an RRG to protect itself from line item exclusion from insurance carriers becasue of the potential for a class-action suit against CF regarding rhabdo. YOU are arguing that an understanding of ECCENTRIC loading is a waste of time…is it at all possible that we are at this crossroads in which we need extraordinary protection from litigation because nearly everyone from the Directors of Training down to most affiliates have no fucking understanding of basic science, including anatomy and physiology? YOU are telling me Latham that a fundamental understanding of THE CAUSE OF RHABDO will not mitigate the instances of rhabdo?

You see Latham, basic understanding of one’s field of work actually has transferable benefits. I can actually THINK about the subject. Although eccentric movement is or primary importance in both hypertrophy training and strength improvements, it has significant implications for things as far afield as liability.

I was going to ask you to stop posting on here but that would be a serious mistake on my part. You are singlehandedly exposing the fallacies and inconsistencies of CF better than I ever could individually. You have reinforced the fact that a bunch of people, ignorantly wielding a powerful tools are dangerous. If I had it in me I could not create an alternate persona and post anonymously and get the same effect. Thank You.

That’s it in a nutshell, Robb… couldn’t have said it better myself.

The real tragedy of CrossFit is that it took something really useful, exposed an enormous amount of people to it… then convinced them to ignore everything else that is useful.

I daily feel regret for the face that I once let Glassman influence my business decisions… I am ashamed to have EVER been “affiliated” with that charlatan.

Zach